Good news from the Holy Land !!!

[Tom Grainger]

http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&am...

Wonderful to see Holy Land Arabs succeeding in education. Enjoy !

[Tom Grainger]

http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&am...

Why did this Holy Land Arab family come back to the State of Israel with all the negative things
we hear about it ? This pattern of Arabs being able to succeed and be productive members of a society does indeed go against the grain of the sterotypical "racist apartheid Zionist entity' one hears about all the time.
On my trips to the Holy Land I found the same pattern from shopkeepers, Druze farmers in the Golan, students in Jerusalem, Bedoin IDF reservists in the Negev - all pulled out their Israeli citizenship card and rhimed off the benefits of being part of this society & not wanting to be anywhere else in the M.E. thank you very much. Now both Hamas & Fatah have as part of their charter, the mandate to create an Islamic State under sharia law. Hmmm...that means that the Christian Arabs are dhimmi or infidels subect to being a tolerated underclass under Islam. Think about it.

[Marc Peterson]

You're correct, Tom. I have posed a question here a few times and have never received an answer; Would you rather be an Arab living in Israel where you can own property, run a business and even be in their government or... A Jew living in any Arab-controlled land on earth? No answers yet.

[Tom Grainger]

Well 60 years ago the Jewish nakba took place where 600 - 700,000 Jews were not given a choice but driven out of Arab lands without compensation or right of return. You may wish to expand in your comment from Arab-controlled to Islamic State as Iran, Indonesia , Pakistan, etc which are not Arab . This is an inconvenient truth which seems hard for most folks to swallow.

[Micah Schuurman]

I have been to the school in Ibillin and met Elias Chacour (the founder of the school) on two occasions.
If you want answers to your questions, you should look no further than his book, "Blood Brothers."
If you do not want to read the book, I can attempt to summarize a small part of it.
For Palestinians, Palestine is their home. It is where they belong. It is where they have lived for centuries.
Now, to respond to some of the things that you have written:
Tom, you mention the benefits of having Israeli citizenship. It is true, Palestinians who have residence in Israel proper do live quite well compared to their neighbors. But, the Palestinians who live under occupation, that is to say, the Arabs who live in the occupied West Bank (on the other side of "the wall") live quite destitute lives. The Palestinians who are stuck in Gaza have it even worse. Your informal survey only serves to point out that life in Israel is pretty good. It does not prove anything as to whether the Israelis treat the Palestinians in the West Bank or in Gaza in a humane way.
Also, you equate the word "dhimmi" with the word "infidels." As Part of my job working in Egypt, I need to speak Arabic fluently. Your translation is terrible. "Dhimmi" means "protected ones", not "infidels." Islam had special protections in place for Christians and Jews. As far as religions go, Islam is very tolerant. Compare Medieval Islam with Medieval Christianity. Compare Baghdad in the 1400s (a city with a huge Jewish population, living in peace with Muslims) with Spain (where the Inquisition drove out all of the Jews). No, anti-semitism has traditionally been a Christian vice. Muslims only picked it up after the creation of the state of Israel. So, to make a long story short, I would rather be a Jew living in 15th century Baghdad than an Arab living in 21st century Israel... even on the "nice side" of the wall.
In shops, I have seen copies of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Don't forget who wrote those protocols in the first place. It was Christians.

[Marc Peterson]

Hi Micah, A couple of things I picked up from your post. You are correct about the dictionary definition of Dhimmi, but that is very misleading when you know how it was used. The word dhimmi became historically significant in 628 A.D., when Muhammad's forces defeated a Jewish tribe that lived at the oasis of Khaybar and made with them a treaty known as the dhimma. The treaty allowed Jews to continue cultivating their oasis, as long as they gave Muhammad half of their produce. Crucially, Muhammad reserved the right to break the deal and expel the Jews whenever he wished. Jews regularly received dhimmi status, which afforded them temporary protection from some abuses, but no permanent status. Dhimmis in Muslim countries over the centuries typically had to pay discriminatory taxes and acknowledge publicly their status as second-class citizens. They were ineligible for any public office and without right even to testify in court. Dhimmis were not allowed to possess weapons, marry Muslim women, meet with others on the streets, or ride horses or camels (the two "noble animals"). Dhimmis had to wear special clothes, walk with eyes lowered and accept being pushed aside by Muslims. Dhimmis had to have low doors on their houses, with no lights on the doors. In 11th century Seville, Jews were not to be met with the greeting, "Peace be unto you," because they were not supposed to have any peace. So, not to whitewash any anti-semitism on Christians parts, which was substantial, but please don't whitewash Muslim history simply because we feel sorry about how some of them are living now. They can be helped, but we should know the truths about the conflict.

[Micah Schuurman]

Where I live, most Christians dont want to be greeted by "Peace be unto you." They prefer the more generic greeting.
I am aware of the history of Mohammed and of Islam. Furthermore, I am very much aware of the downsides of living as a Dhimmi in a Muslim country. Furthermore, there were some quite logical thoughts behind most of the "discriminations." For example, the prohibition against Christians in government positions in the beginnings of Islam were quite typical of how religions function. Did you notice the outcry among Christians when the Muslim Senator from Minnesota got elected? Or, did you notice the outcry from Christians who claimed that Obama was a Muslim and that, on this basis, he should not be elected president? This is not something particular to Islam.
Also, this is the first time that I heard that the Dhimmi tax on the Jews of Medina was half of their crops. I have never heard any number cited, but 50% seems much higher than I would have imagined. Could you perhaps show me the source?
Im not trying to whitewash what happened under Islam. What I am trying to say is that this is typical of most religions. The Coptic Orthodox Church welcomed the Muslims with open arms when they arrived. This was because the Copts had been experiencing persecution under the Byzantines who were also Orthodox, but who differed over the issue of Christ's nature, (there had been a split after the Council of Chalcedon relating to the nature of Christ).
All this goes to say that discrimination based on religion is something deeply ingrained in religion. It continues to pop up in America despite years of living under a government which was specifically designed to promote religious freedoms.

[Tom Grainger]

Thanks Marc & Micah - from what I remember I was not defining Dhimmi as Infidel but rather trying to connect that a non-Muslim in a Muslim land is an infidel & hence at best a second class status person or Dhimmi. Wikipedia has an extensive entry on it and as you point out Marc, Dhimmi status is precarious and cannot be compared to the status and benefits of an Arab Israeli citizen in Israel. A "Palestinian" State would be Islamist & under Sharia Law as per their charter so we can only hope that the "Road Map to Peace" contains a guarantee of religous freedom such as is the case in Israel .

The thread here Micah is that there are good things happening in Israel & especially in Arab education within a Christian School context and culturally with the featured family moving back to Nazareth and leaving the USA. I would hope that a blog such as this this would move beyond Israel bashing to a more balanced understanding of the issues. The Arab Christian site from Nazareth www.comeandsee.com offers a unique viewpoint both pro & con with recent articles from Sabeel, another on "Muslims are harming Christian Culture" , and "Christian schools in Nazareth among best in the Country" which show cases how Arab children can excel academically under Christian education.

A practical question for you Micah is how can you as a Christian bless the Jewish people you come in contact with keeping in mind Paul's letter to the Romans Chapter 11 ? especially verses 25 to 36 ? How can we bring God's Kingdom to the Holy Land ?

ps please do a bit more homework on Muslim Anti-Semitism as it goes back to Mohammed's day and surfaced as a pan Arab movement after WW1 . The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was very connected to Hitler in the 1930's along with the following from Wikipedia.

The Muslim Brothers (Arabic: الإخوان المسلمون al-ikhwān al-muslimūn, full title The Society of the Muslim Brothers, often simply الإخوان al-ikhwān, the Brotherhood or MB) is a transnational Sunni movement and the largest political opposition organization in many Arab nations, particularly Egypt.[1] The world's oldest and largest Islamist group[1] was founded by the Egyptian schoolteacher Hassan al-Banna in 1928.

These groups are dedicated to the credo:

Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.[2][3]

The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".[4]

Since its inception in 1928 the movement has officially opposed violent means to achieve its goals,[citation needed] with some exceptions such as in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or to overthrow secular Ba'athist rule in Syria (see Hama massacre). This official position has been questioned, particularly by the Egyptian government who accused it of a campaign of killings in Egypt after World War II.[5]

The Brotherhood has been described as both unjustly oppressed and dangerously violent. Members have been arbitrarily arrested;[6][7] in Egypt the government has obstructed the party's attempts to field candidates in elections, with arrests or harassment of activists[8][9] and obstruction of voting in Muslim Brotherhood strongholds.[10] However, supporters of the Brotherhood have demonstrated violence on their part in many occasions and have often clashed with supporters of other parties, specifically the NDP in Egypt. Outside of Egypt, the group's political activity has been described as evolving away from modernism and reformism towards a more traditional, "rightist conservative" stance. For example, the Muslim Brotherhood party in Kuwait opposes suffrage for women.[11]

Among the Brotherhood's more influential members was Sayyid Qutb. Qutb was the author of one of Islamism's most important books, Milestones, which called for the restoration of Islam by re-establishing the Sharia and by using "physical power and Jihad for abolishing the organizations and authorities of the Jahili system,"[12] which he believed to include the entire Muslim world.[13] While studying at university, Osama bin Laden claimed to have been influenced by the religious and political ideas of several professors with strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood including both Sayyid Qutb and his brother Muhammad Qutb. While some have claimed that the Brotherhood's theology and methods are opposed to those of bin Laden, and that they are "reformist," "democratic," "non-violent" and "chiefly political",[14] some journalists have reported the opposite.[15][16][17][18][19]

[Micah Schuurman]

Your use of the word infidel is rather vague. You seem to think that Muslims would call me an infidel. This is far from the truth.
Christianity is a religion of Orthodoxy where right belief (Ortho-dox) is the most important part. Islam on the other hand is a religion based on Orthopraxy where right action (Ortho- praxis) is most valued. The word infidel is a product of bad translation. We see infidel (in-fideles) as relating to being unfaithful or not having the right faith. This is far from how Muslims see it. The Muslim idea of an infidel is no less than one who does not live a good life, a life of humility before the face of God, following his injunctions to live a life of justice.
No muslim would call me a Muslim. But, a vast majority would not call me an infidel. They would probably use annother word, "Ahl-al Kitab" or "People of the book." They see Judaism and Christianity as being "true" religions... albeit ones that have gone astray in terms of doctrine.
To make a long story short, these are complex words that dont translate very well into English. I am simply cautioning agaisnt throwing them arround heedlessly.
If you want to connect people to Hitler, you dont need to go looking for someone as remote as the Grand Mufti. Look no further than the leaders of the German Lutheran church and the Pope himself.
Also, your reference to Fatah's charter doesnt mean much. Through personal experience and through stories from friends who live in the West Bank, I have come to learn that the Palestinians in the West Bank are overwhelmingly secular. They would NEVER actually carry through on this part of the charter.

I am unsettled by your cautioning me against "Israel bashing." I do not hate Israel. I want Israel to continue to exist as a homeland for Jews. I am merely trying to sort through what I stumbled accross here on this website which seems to me to be little more than an "Muslim bashing" fest.
The first post, the one relating to the article is a quite neutral one. But, the subsequent replies paint a very different picture. The posts make me hope that my Muslim friends never find this website...

[Marc Peterson]

"I have come to learn that the Palestinians in the West Bank are overwhelmingly secular. They would NEVER actually carry through on this part of the charter."

-How many suicide bombers in the past 30 years have been Palestinian Christians? I'm sure your friends are nice people, but their "leadership" is killing them. More Palestinians are killed by their own people than the IDF month after month. Through their hate-filled textbooks, their cheering at the suicide bomber's funeral, etc.. they are poisoning their culture with hatred and their wealthy Muslim brothers are using them as tools instead of helping them.

[Micah Schuurman]

George Habash... Not a suicide bomber, but he founded the PFLP and organized dozens of attacks, hijackings, etc. He also had a number of Christian followers.
The reason that a vast majority of the suicide bombers are Muslim is that a vast majority of Palestinians are Muslim. Most estimates that I have heard put the percent of Christians between 3 and 6 percent of the total population.
One question for you: why the emphasis on suicide bombers? Isn't any bombing that targets civilians just as bad? Suicide bombing seems to be a particularly Muslim activity (read about its history, it is pretty interesting how it started), but Im not sure that this itself is any reason to despise them more than other demographic groups that use more traditional methods to blow up innocent people. If we broaden the scope of your question to include all bombings that target innocent people, we see that everyone has their hands bloody... especially the Israelis.
I agree that the wealthy in Palestine are using the poor in Palestine to achieve its own ends, but Americans shouldnt point fingers on this topic... not at all...

[Tom Grainger]

The thread started out with the premise that on occasion good things do happen in Israel as a counterpoint to the Justice Seekers whom have not been to the Holy Land & base their ME view on the CNN news, Sabeel, International Solidarity Movement or whatever. I am encouraged that your vision of the Holy Land includes a spot for the Jewish people and we can all pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Micah - if you are concerned for your personal safety or situation endangering the CRC Church or missionaries by any blog content, I am willing to drop off the posts. Again the wikipedia references were to get some of the Justice Seekers to look at the bigger picture. That may have been to optimistic on my part as the tone of the Justice Seekers seems to avoid any constructive criticism of the Arab or Islamic world and focus on the root cause as the Israeli occupation. Again I am willing to drop off and let the blog find it's own level.

What about the other Middle East bloggers ?? What say you ? Lots of folks sitting in the weeds.

[Micah Schuurman]

I am not worried about my safety in the least, but thank you for the thought. The people where I live are some of the most loving people that I have ever met.
I sympathize with your desire to show some of the positive aspects of what is happening in the Middle East. This is a necessary thing to do. But, as I read the responses to the original post, it seemed as though the positive aspects of what is happening had been taken out of the context of the major injustices that were happening. The only injustices that came to light were those commited by Muslims and Arabs.
Regarding constructive criticism of the Arab world, it is a difficult process. I doubt that I will ever be qualified to be effective at constructively criticizing it even if I stay here for the rest of my life. The one people group to whom I feel that I am capable of offering criticism is on Americans, especially Americans who are not aware of some of the historical truths of the Middle East Conflict. I am in no position to tell Arabs what to do. I am in no position to tell the Israelis what to do. My own roots are far away from what is happening here. What I can do is influence Americans. America is responsible for many of the injustices that take place in the conflict. Those bombs that fell over Lebannon two and a half years ago were made in America and paid for by America. I CAN object to that. I CAN criticize that because it is my home and my people who are perpetrating the injustice... so I do. I criticize American foreign policy by attempting to explain the deeper truths of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
If I criticized Arabs or Israelis, I wouldnt get anywhere. They would simply say, "you dont know what it is like to be us"... and they would be right. I dont know what it is like to be a survivor of the Holocaust. I dont know what it is like to be forced from my home late at night. I dont know what it is like to grow up in a refugee camp, my father in an Israeli prison, held without a trial and without even being told what he did. I cannot speak to these people. I speak to Americans who see the Middle East in stark colors of black and white.

So, my suggestion is, instead of trying to constructively criticize Israel or the Arab countries, try to spread the truth about injustices that happen in the Middle East and then criticize US foreign policy in the region... because it certainly does stand in need of criticism.